Re: Articles
766I suspect Thome, not Kenny, maybe Carlos, probably Sandy and Joey, and Manny, although the last two didn't need them. But everyone holds up Thome as an example of a guy who never used, yet had great success.
Re: Articles
767You should suspect all of them and about a half a dozen other guys on those teams. Including Omar.
Re: Articles
768If that's the case, then the whole league was doing them.rusty2 wrote:You should suspect all of them and about a half a dozen other guys on those teams. Including Omar.
Re: Articles
769“You’ll just say you’re coming home”
By Anthony Castrovince/MLB.com
On Twitter: @Castrovince
This feels right, even if the timing is not.
Jim Thome is going to be a Cleveland Indian once again. The prodigal son is returning home to the city he spurned in 2002, when wooed by wealth, pressured by the players union and unswayed by Jacobs Field statue specifications.
That he’s joining a pennant chase gasping for breath, with the Indians 6 1/2 back of the Tigers and suffering what seems to be a key injury a day (even on an off day, it was revealed Josh Tomlin will miss his next start with an undisclosed ailment), hardly seems to matter. The fact is, Thome is on the last leg, if not the last pinky toe, of what is likely (read: had better be) a Hall of Fame career, and this would be the most suitable place to cap it.
Should the Tribe be rejuvenated by his presence and get back into the thick of the AL Central standings, well, then, all the better.
Obviously, this transaction — that rare August waiver-wire claim that amounted to actual prominent player movement — is about improving a sagging lineup, one that might be bereft of Travis Hafner’s bat for the remainder of the stretch run.
But it’s also about something else. That word so many use after failed relationships, be they of the reality TV or the actual reality type.
Closure.
I despise that word. I hate to use it here. The way the circle twists and turns in life, “closure” is often more impermanent than we intend it to be.
Thome, though, is 41, has hit his 600th homer, likely locked down his Cooperstown credentials and has a family waiting at home. If this is, indeed, closure to his career, then I can think of no better place for it to come. It’s going to be a Chief Wahoo cap atop his head on his Hall of Fame plaque, so it might as well be the same cap (well, on days the Indians aren’t wearing the blah block “C,” of course) on his dome for the stretch run.
If you’ve been following along this week, you know that the Twins could have potentially orchestrated their waiver workings to get Thome back in Philadelphia. They could have, as a favor to Thome, withdrawn him from waivers and placed him on release waivers, thereby making him a free agent eligible to sign with any team. He could have then returned to the Phillies and his mashing mentor, Charlie Manuel. Undoubtedly, given the Phillies’ place in the standings and their robust rotation, this would have been the best available option for him to reach the World Series, no matter the role.
Let’s ignore the obvious fact that this scenario would have been universally derided, scrutinized and pooh-poohed in the baseball industry and was very much unlikely. It makes for better drama if we just pretend that Thome, who had a full no-trade clause with the Twins, essentially had to choose between the Indians and the Phillies once again. And this time, he went with his roots.
(Isn’t that a terrific story? OK, good, let’s just run with it.)
Thome agonized over his free-agent decision in 2002, and he would eat his words after claiming they’d have to “rip the jersey” off his back before he’d leave the Indians. Some fans here still have not forgiven him, because hell hath no fury like a sports fan spurned.
But players always leave for the money. No, wait, correction… players always leave Cleveland for the money, and Thome proved no different. And I think on some level — well, many levels — he always regretted that decision. He built strong relationships in Philly and Chicago and Minnesota and even Los Angeles in the years that followed, because a man of Thome’s presence and personality builds strong relationships wherever he goes. But behind the scenes, he made it clear to the Cleveland higher-ups (who never held any grudges over his decision, because of that aforementioned personality and because, frankly, they were in a better position to rebuild without Thome eating up a significant chunk of the player payroll) that he wanted to come back.
Of course, that was never possible, because as Thome aged and found his first-base days to be done, the Indians signed Travis Hafner to the type of gargantuan contract (the largest in club history) they once envisioned for Thome, sans a few million and a statue clause.
Now, Hafner is hurt, but that’s nothing new. What’s new is that the Indians are in contention (but barely), Thome, the franchise home run leader, was readily available at an affordable rate and the stars aligned.
Unlike many emotional moves, however, this one actually makes strategic sense. Thome is coming to a place where he’ll get more than just pinch-hit playing time, and he’s been productive. He’s hit .278 with a .910 OPS, six homers, eight doubles and 21 RBIs in 30 games since the All-Star break. Hafner, by comparison, has hit just .220 with a .642 OPS, three homers, five doubles and 14 RBIs in 31 games since the break.
This is an improvement for the Indians. And it doubles, for those above the bitterness, as a happy homecoming. With so many bodies on the injury report, with Ubaldo Jimenez slinging slop and with so much ground to make up in the midst of a strained and stressful schedule, it’s possible — maybe even likely — that this move is much too little, much too late.
But it feels right. It feels like closure. And hopefully Jim Thome has heard his last boo in that ballpark.
~AC
By Anthony Castrovince/MLB.com
On Twitter: @Castrovince
This feels right, even if the timing is not.
Jim Thome is going to be a Cleveland Indian once again. The prodigal son is returning home to the city he spurned in 2002, when wooed by wealth, pressured by the players union and unswayed by Jacobs Field statue specifications.
That he’s joining a pennant chase gasping for breath, with the Indians 6 1/2 back of the Tigers and suffering what seems to be a key injury a day (even on an off day, it was revealed Josh Tomlin will miss his next start with an undisclosed ailment), hardly seems to matter. The fact is, Thome is on the last leg, if not the last pinky toe, of what is likely (read: had better be) a Hall of Fame career, and this would be the most suitable place to cap it.
Should the Tribe be rejuvenated by his presence and get back into the thick of the AL Central standings, well, then, all the better.
Obviously, this transaction — that rare August waiver-wire claim that amounted to actual prominent player movement — is about improving a sagging lineup, one that might be bereft of Travis Hafner’s bat for the remainder of the stretch run.
But it’s also about something else. That word so many use after failed relationships, be they of the reality TV or the actual reality type.
Closure.
I despise that word. I hate to use it here. The way the circle twists and turns in life, “closure” is often more impermanent than we intend it to be.
Thome, though, is 41, has hit his 600th homer, likely locked down his Cooperstown credentials and has a family waiting at home. If this is, indeed, closure to his career, then I can think of no better place for it to come. It’s going to be a Chief Wahoo cap atop his head on his Hall of Fame plaque, so it might as well be the same cap (well, on days the Indians aren’t wearing the blah block “C,” of course) on his dome for the stretch run.
If you’ve been following along this week, you know that the Twins could have potentially orchestrated their waiver workings to get Thome back in Philadelphia. They could have, as a favor to Thome, withdrawn him from waivers and placed him on release waivers, thereby making him a free agent eligible to sign with any team. He could have then returned to the Phillies and his mashing mentor, Charlie Manuel. Undoubtedly, given the Phillies’ place in the standings and their robust rotation, this would have been the best available option for him to reach the World Series, no matter the role.
Let’s ignore the obvious fact that this scenario would have been universally derided, scrutinized and pooh-poohed in the baseball industry and was very much unlikely. It makes for better drama if we just pretend that Thome, who had a full no-trade clause with the Twins, essentially had to choose between the Indians and the Phillies once again. And this time, he went with his roots.
(Isn’t that a terrific story? OK, good, let’s just run with it.)
Thome agonized over his free-agent decision in 2002, and he would eat his words after claiming they’d have to “rip the jersey” off his back before he’d leave the Indians. Some fans here still have not forgiven him, because hell hath no fury like a sports fan spurned.
But players always leave for the money. No, wait, correction… players always leave Cleveland for the money, and Thome proved no different. And I think on some level — well, many levels — he always regretted that decision. He built strong relationships in Philly and Chicago and Minnesota and even Los Angeles in the years that followed, because a man of Thome’s presence and personality builds strong relationships wherever he goes. But behind the scenes, he made it clear to the Cleveland higher-ups (who never held any grudges over his decision, because of that aforementioned personality and because, frankly, they were in a better position to rebuild without Thome eating up a significant chunk of the player payroll) that he wanted to come back.
Of course, that was never possible, because as Thome aged and found his first-base days to be done, the Indians signed Travis Hafner to the type of gargantuan contract (the largest in club history) they once envisioned for Thome, sans a few million and a statue clause.
Now, Hafner is hurt, but that’s nothing new. What’s new is that the Indians are in contention (but barely), Thome, the franchise home run leader, was readily available at an affordable rate and the stars aligned.
Unlike many emotional moves, however, this one actually makes strategic sense. Thome is coming to a place where he’ll get more than just pinch-hit playing time, and he’s been productive. He’s hit .278 with a .910 OPS, six homers, eight doubles and 21 RBIs in 30 games since the All-Star break. Hafner, by comparison, has hit just .220 with a .642 OPS, three homers, five doubles and 14 RBIs in 31 games since the break.
This is an improvement for the Indians. And it doubles, for those above the bitterness, as a happy homecoming. With so many bodies on the injury report, with Ubaldo Jimenez slinging slop and with so much ground to make up in the midst of a strained and stressful schedule, it’s possible — maybe even likely — that this move is much too little, much too late.
But it feels right. It feels like closure. And hopefully Jim Thome has heard his last boo in that ballpark.
~AC
Re: Articles
770Monday, April 30, 2007
Thome deserving of boos
11:00 AM TONY NO COMMENTS
When you think about the Indians of the 90s, six players (The Big Six) usually come to mind as the faces of the franchise those years: Manny Ramirez, Kenny Lofton, Jim Thome, Omar Vizquel, Sandy Alomar Jr, and Charles Nagy. Other like Albert Belle, Roberto Alomar, Dennis Martinez and Orel Hershiser had their moments, but the Big Six were mostly here from the beginning to the end of the "Era of Champions" from 1995-2001.
Slowly, The Big Six left the organization for various reasons, but Thome's departure was the one that hurt the most and has been the one most often talked about by Indians fans.
When Thome hit the free agent market after the 2002 season it was a key time for the Indians organization. After the 2002 season, the Indians were in transition and in the early stages of a complete rebuild after General Manager Mark Shapiro's roster purge the previous summer.
To fans, Thome was largely viewed as the most popular Indian, and was basically Mr. Indian. Many fans felt he would forever go down as one of the Indians greats of all-time, shatter tons of club records, and end up having his number retired and displayed in the right field mezzanine with the likes of Boudreau, Feller, Colavito and others.
But, that all changed on December 6, 2002 when Thome packed his bags, boarded a plane with his "Rock" (his wife), and shunned the very fans who grew to adore the farm kid from Peoria, IL by taking a six year $85 million deal from the Philadelphia Phillies.
Shun you ask? How can he shun the fans by taking six years and $85 million over the Indians final offer of five years and $62 million?
The difference in the two deals was indeed roughly $23 million in total guaranteed money, and most players would take the higher offer in a nanosecond. But the catch here is Thome was supposed to be different. A throwback. A player with loyalty and supposedly one who loved this city and the fans. As fans, we have seen numerous players in other cities take much, much less to stay with their teams, and we thought for sure Thome would do the same.
Thome even said so himself, as noted by two quotes from the Plain Dealer near the end of the 2002 season:
"I've never even thought about playing for another team. I really like the idea of playing your whole career in one place. That doesn't happen much today. You look at Cal Ripken, Tony Gwynn, Kirby Puckett. For them to play their whole careers for one team, that's very special."
"What I do know is that my wife and I love it here, and we'd love to stay."
The Indians themselves even thought Thome would eventually resign with them. Thome had a no trade clause, and the Indians never approached him to waive it when they purged the roster of expensive veterans for young prospects during the roster purge in June and July of 2002. The reason was because Shapiro had no desire to trade him, and Thome told them he had no desire to leave. The two sides seemed to have an amicable relationship where a deal getting done seemed a foregone conclusion.
The Indians organization and fans all felt Thome would stay with the team, but when free agency started and dollar signs flashed in front of Thome's eyes, things changed. When the time came to back up all of his talk, he didn't. Greed took over. And that right there is the reason why Thome is vilified by the fans.
Albert Belle once confessed openly that is exactly what he did when he signed with the White Sox, that he went for the last possible dollar. And he was promptly greeted with a cascade of boos and fake money rained on him in left field the first time he returned. But for as much of a jerk he was, at least Belle was honest and displayed integrity about it. Thome was a weasel and lied through his teeth. While Belle and even Manny unequivocally left for the money, Thome alleged that he left for the chance to 'win'.
When reviewing the facts from the contract negotiations made public in the Thome free agent war between the Indians and Phillies, it is easy to see that Thome was driven to get the last dollar.
According to ESPN, Philly originally offered Thome five years and $75 million, and the Indians offered four years and $48 million. At the time, the original Phillies offer was $27 million more in guaranteed money than the Indians offer, which obviously is substantial. However, it was not substantial enough for Thome to sign right then and there with the Phillies.
Now, everyone knows this is just a starting point for discussions, and that there is usually back and forth negotiating before a deal is ultimately reached. But, the tactics used by Thome were questionable, and illustrate his greed. Thome wanted the Indians to match the fifth year - which was understandable - and the Indians obliged by countering with a five year $62 million deal. The Indians matched the 5th year the Phillies had offered at Thome's request, and now the difference in guaranteed money was only $13 million.
But, this is where (at least to me) it shows Thome and his agent were not looking for a fair deal, but instead were looking for the Brinks truck to be backed up into Thome's driveway. Instead of accepting the Indians offer after they obliged with the fifth year, or at worst maybe asking them for a little more money to bridge the gap in the difference of guaranteed money between the two deals, instead Thome and his agent took the Indians deal and shopped it to get more cash from the Phillies.
Apparently, the Indians offer was enough for Thome and his agent to shop it to the Phillies to try and fleece them for more money, and the Phillies accommodated by offering the six year $85 million deal. Then, Thome came back to the Indians (again) and asked for them to add another year (again) to the deal.
The Indians said no thanks. Had the Indians obliged (again) and added a sixth guaranteed year like they did the fifth year, whose to say Thome does not go back to the Phillies and gets seven years? Eventually, you draw a line in the sand, which is what the Indians did.
It should be noted, while the Indians did not come back with a guaranteed sixth year, unbeknownst to many Indians fans, the Indians DID come back with one final offer where they added a sixth year to the deal as a vesting option for $12-13 million. It was not guaranteed money, but was probably tied to plate appearances and reportedly the option was easily attainable if he stayed reasonably healthy.
The Indians were concerned about Thome's back (which in hindsight was a legit concern), and they wanted to insure themselves if he went down with a back injury. Had the vesting option matured, the final difference in money would only have been around $10 million in total dollars from the final Phillies and Indians deals.
So, the original difference in the value (including the option year) between the two deals went from $27 million to about $10 million. Yet, after all that legwork and all those negotiations to get the Indians offer more competitive with the Phillies offer, Thome still chose to sign with the Phillies.
Can it get any clearer than that? If the guy was on the fence when the deals were $27 million apart, but when whittled down to a $10 million difference in total contract value, you would think the player who had supposedly grown to adore the city and fans and wanted to be an Indian forever would have signed on the dotted line....with the Indians. But he didn't. He instead took the last dollar, and went to the Phillies.
Indians fans are not stupid. While a lot of fans consider Indians owner Larry Dolan a tightwad and cheap, they know when they have been duped. They know Thome's real motive here was nothing more than M-O-N-E-Y. They know his words of wanting to stay here was nothing more than hollow lip service, and that he ended up being "just another ballplayer" looking to get paid.
The Indians fans showered Belle with boos and fake money because he was a jackass, not because they felt he screwed the fans over. The Indians fans shower Thome with boos because he DID screw the fans over into believing he would stay and that the love between ballplayer and fans was mutual, and he turned out to be a jackass in his own right. Thome was supposed to be a player who would hold true to his word, and he didn't. And THAT is why the fans boo him at Jacobs Field.
This is the difference from him being Albert Belle and going for the last dollar and say Trevor Hoffman/Tony Gwynn/Craig Biggio who actually lived up to their word and stuck around with their teams for much less coin. Heck, look at Jake Westbrook. He clearly wanted to stay in Cleveland, loves it here, and felt some loyalty to the organization. So, he gave the team a hometown discount and signed for three years and $33 million, when he probably could have gotten much more in free agency. Why couldn't Thome do that?
The Indians offer was very fair, and very similar in nature to what some of the other players in the league have stuck around for when giving hometown discounts. Isn't it ironic that the man (Belle) who displayed significant objectionable behavior off the field is the one who was honest, forthright, and displayed integrity?
In the USA Today in August 2002, Thome said:
"You shouldn't play this game for the money. You should play it for pride, and for the love of the game. ... My dad always told me it's not what you do when you walk in the door, it's what you've done after you walk out. It's what kind of an impression you've left."
Well, Mr. Thome. You certainly left an impression.
Follow Tony and the Indians Prospect Insider on Twitter @TonyIPI. Also, his latest book the 2011 Cleveland Indians Top 100 Prospects & More is available for purchase for $20.95 to customers in the US (shipping and handling extra). Use discount code 2Z6F362B to receive 40% off the book through the site store!
Thome deserving of boos
11:00 AM TONY NO COMMENTS
When you think about the Indians of the 90s, six players (The Big Six) usually come to mind as the faces of the franchise those years: Manny Ramirez, Kenny Lofton, Jim Thome, Omar Vizquel, Sandy Alomar Jr, and Charles Nagy. Other like Albert Belle, Roberto Alomar, Dennis Martinez and Orel Hershiser had their moments, but the Big Six were mostly here from the beginning to the end of the "Era of Champions" from 1995-2001.
Slowly, The Big Six left the organization for various reasons, but Thome's departure was the one that hurt the most and has been the one most often talked about by Indians fans.
When Thome hit the free agent market after the 2002 season it was a key time for the Indians organization. After the 2002 season, the Indians were in transition and in the early stages of a complete rebuild after General Manager Mark Shapiro's roster purge the previous summer.
To fans, Thome was largely viewed as the most popular Indian, and was basically Mr. Indian. Many fans felt he would forever go down as one of the Indians greats of all-time, shatter tons of club records, and end up having his number retired and displayed in the right field mezzanine with the likes of Boudreau, Feller, Colavito and others.
But, that all changed on December 6, 2002 when Thome packed his bags, boarded a plane with his "Rock" (his wife), and shunned the very fans who grew to adore the farm kid from Peoria, IL by taking a six year $85 million deal from the Philadelphia Phillies.
Shun you ask? How can he shun the fans by taking six years and $85 million over the Indians final offer of five years and $62 million?
The difference in the two deals was indeed roughly $23 million in total guaranteed money, and most players would take the higher offer in a nanosecond. But the catch here is Thome was supposed to be different. A throwback. A player with loyalty and supposedly one who loved this city and the fans. As fans, we have seen numerous players in other cities take much, much less to stay with their teams, and we thought for sure Thome would do the same.
Thome even said so himself, as noted by two quotes from the Plain Dealer near the end of the 2002 season:
"I've never even thought about playing for another team. I really like the idea of playing your whole career in one place. That doesn't happen much today. You look at Cal Ripken, Tony Gwynn, Kirby Puckett. For them to play their whole careers for one team, that's very special."
"What I do know is that my wife and I love it here, and we'd love to stay."
The Indians themselves even thought Thome would eventually resign with them. Thome had a no trade clause, and the Indians never approached him to waive it when they purged the roster of expensive veterans for young prospects during the roster purge in June and July of 2002. The reason was because Shapiro had no desire to trade him, and Thome told them he had no desire to leave. The two sides seemed to have an amicable relationship where a deal getting done seemed a foregone conclusion.
The Indians organization and fans all felt Thome would stay with the team, but when free agency started and dollar signs flashed in front of Thome's eyes, things changed. When the time came to back up all of his talk, he didn't. Greed took over. And that right there is the reason why Thome is vilified by the fans.
Albert Belle once confessed openly that is exactly what he did when he signed with the White Sox, that he went for the last possible dollar. And he was promptly greeted with a cascade of boos and fake money rained on him in left field the first time he returned. But for as much of a jerk he was, at least Belle was honest and displayed integrity about it. Thome was a weasel and lied through his teeth. While Belle and even Manny unequivocally left for the money, Thome alleged that he left for the chance to 'win'.
When reviewing the facts from the contract negotiations made public in the Thome free agent war between the Indians and Phillies, it is easy to see that Thome was driven to get the last dollar.
According to ESPN, Philly originally offered Thome five years and $75 million, and the Indians offered four years and $48 million. At the time, the original Phillies offer was $27 million more in guaranteed money than the Indians offer, which obviously is substantial. However, it was not substantial enough for Thome to sign right then and there with the Phillies.
Now, everyone knows this is just a starting point for discussions, and that there is usually back and forth negotiating before a deal is ultimately reached. But, the tactics used by Thome were questionable, and illustrate his greed. Thome wanted the Indians to match the fifth year - which was understandable - and the Indians obliged by countering with a five year $62 million deal. The Indians matched the 5th year the Phillies had offered at Thome's request, and now the difference in guaranteed money was only $13 million.
But, this is where (at least to me) it shows Thome and his agent were not looking for a fair deal, but instead were looking for the Brinks truck to be backed up into Thome's driveway. Instead of accepting the Indians offer after they obliged with the fifth year, or at worst maybe asking them for a little more money to bridge the gap in the difference of guaranteed money between the two deals, instead Thome and his agent took the Indians deal and shopped it to get more cash from the Phillies.
Apparently, the Indians offer was enough for Thome and his agent to shop it to the Phillies to try and fleece them for more money, and the Phillies accommodated by offering the six year $85 million deal. Then, Thome came back to the Indians (again) and asked for them to add another year (again) to the deal.
The Indians said no thanks. Had the Indians obliged (again) and added a sixth guaranteed year like they did the fifth year, whose to say Thome does not go back to the Phillies and gets seven years? Eventually, you draw a line in the sand, which is what the Indians did.
It should be noted, while the Indians did not come back with a guaranteed sixth year, unbeknownst to many Indians fans, the Indians DID come back with one final offer where they added a sixth year to the deal as a vesting option for $12-13 million. It was not guaranteed money, but was probably tied to plate appearances and reportedly the option was easily attainable if he stayed reasonably healthy.
The Indians were concerned about Thome's back (which in hindsight was a legit concern), and they wanted to insure themselves if he went down with a back injury. Had the vesting option matured, the final difference in money would only have been around $10 million in total dollars from the final Phillies and Indians deals.
So, the original difference in the value (including the option year) between the two deals went from $27 million to about $10 million. Yet, after all that legwork and all those negotiations to get the Indians offer more competitive with the Phillies offer, Thome still chose to sign with the Phillies.
Can it get any clearer than that? If the guy was on the fence when the deals were $27 million apart, but when whittled down to a $10 million difference in total contract value, you would think the player who had supposedly grown to adore the city and fans and wanted to be an Indian forever would have signed on the dotted line....with the Indians. But he didn't. He instead took the last dollar, and went to the Phillies.
Indians fans are not stupid. While a lot of fans consider Indians owner Larry Dolan a tightwad and cheap, they know when they have been duped. They know Thome's real motive here was nothing more than M-O-N-E-Y. They know his words of wanting to stay here was nothing more than hollow lip service, and that he ended up being "just another ballplayer" looking to get paid.
The Indians fans showered Belle with boos and fake money because he was a jackass, not because they felt he screwed the fans over. The Indians fans shower Thome with boos because he DID screw the fans over into believing he would stay and that the love between ballplayer and fans was mutual, and he turned out to be a jackass in his own right. Thome was supposed to be a player who would hold true to his word, and he didn't. And THAT is why the fans boo him at Jacobs Field.
This is the difference from him being Albert Belle and going for the last dollar and say Trevor Hoffman/Tony Gwynn/Craig Biggio who actually lived up to their word and stuck around with their teams for much less coin. Heck, look at Jake Westbrook. He clearly wanted to stay in Cleveland, loves it here, and felt some loyalty to the organization. So, he gave the team a hometown discount and signed for three years and $33 million, when he probably could have gotten much more in free agency. Why couldn't Thome do that?
The Indians offer was very fair, and very similar in nature to what some of the other players in the league have stuck around for when giving hometown discounts. Isn't it ironic that the man (Belle) who displayed significant objectionable behavior off the field is the one who was honest, forthright, and displayed integrity?
In the USA Today in August 2002, Thome said:
"You shouldn't play this game for the money. You should play it for pride, and for the love of the game. ... My dad always told me it's not what you do when you walk in the door, it's what you've done after you walk out. It's what kind of an impression you've left."
Well, Mr. Thome. You certainly left an impression.
Follow Tony and the Indians Prospect Insider on Twitter @TonyIPI. Also, his latest book the 2011 Cleveland Indians Top 100 Prospects & More is available for purchase for $20.95 to customers in the US (shipping and handling extra). Use discount code 2Z6F362B to receive 40% off the book through the site store!
Re: Articles
771Regardless of what others think, I have always felt that if Manuel had been kept as manager, it would have been tougher for Thome to leave. Money is a lot but so is friendship.
I am NOT trying to revive a dead horse, just reacting to someone elses opinion.
I am NOT trying to revive a dead horse, just reacting to someone elses opinion.
Re: Articles
772What I like is the Indians DOING something the second half of this season. Bottom line is we need to sweep Detroit in Cleveland to make the last month interesting and we won't skip Verlander this time!!!
Re: Articles
773I agree Frank and stated so. Refreshing!What I like is the Indians DOING something the second half of this season
“Every day is a new opportunity. You can build on yesterday's success or put its failures behind and start over again. That's the way life is, with a new game every day, and that's the way baseball is.”
-- Bob Feller
-- Bob Feller
Re: Articles
774Again, new GM. And I think we like the early returns on Chris Ant.
With Ubaldo's effort last night, I like it even more!
With Ubaldo's effort last night, I like it even more!
"I've suffered a great many tragedies in my life....most of them never happened". Mark Twain
Re: Articles
776The return of a legend
AUG
27
Written by: Tony Lastoria
8/27/2011 9:21 AM
The Indians made one of their more popular moves in a long time when on Thursday night they completed a trade with the Minnesota Twins to acquire designated hitter Jim Thome.
When the Twins put Thome on trade waivers Monday afternoon word quickly started to spread that the Indians may claim him and try to swing a deal with the Twins. With designated hitter Travis Hafner suffering a nasty foot injury in Detroit on Sunday and potentially done for the season, it made a lot of sense to find a designated hitter option if one were to come available.
While the 48 hour waiver period had to run its course there was a lot of speculation that the Chicago White Sox would put in a claim on Thome to block the Indians. For those unfamiliar with the claim process, how it works is teams with a worse record have higher waiver priority and the White Sox were a game behind the Indians so they could have claimed him before the Indians. In the end the White Sox did not make a claim, possibly as a nice gesture to allow a clear path for Thome to return to the Indians.
Once the Indians were awarded the claim it was but a mere formality for the Indians and Twins to complete a deal. Thome did not have a lot of trade value, so the Indians and Twins were able to agree on a very small list of players for the Twins to choose from. The deal ended up being for a “player to be named later”, and the Twins have until October 15th to make that decision. The player is not expected to be a player of significance.
Upon the official news being released late on Thursday night that Thome was indeed an Indian again, it set off a fervor among Tribe Nation. One of the true Indians greats of all time was returning to the team and city for one final hurrah, and to potentially retire with the team he originally started his long professional career with back in 1991.
Over Thome’s 12-year Major League career with the Indians from 1991-2002 he hit .287 with 334 homers, and 927 RBI in 1377 games. He turned 41-years old last night and returns to the Indians as the club’s all time leader in home runs (334) and walks (997), and ranks second all time in club history in RBI (927), fifth in runs scored (917), fourth in total bases (2633), third in on-base percentage (.414), and third in extra base hits (613). His 52 home runs in 2002 are a franchise single season record, and his 49 home runs in 2001 are third most in franchise history (Albert Belle had 50 homers in 1995).
Thome is no longer one of the most feared left-handed power hitters in the game, but he is still very productive. Prior to joining the Indians he was hitting .243 with 12 homers, 40 RBI and a .827 OPS in 71 games with the Twins. He recently joined the 600 home run club when he socked two homers against Detroit on August 15th, and is only the eighth player in baseball history to reach the 600 homer club.
The return “home” for Thome was celebrated on Friday night with a sellout crowd that gave him a standing ovation and lifted “Welcome Thome” signs when he first stepped to the plate. It was an electric atmosphere and brought back memories of the time nine years ago when “The Jake” was flooded with fans every night, the Tribe was a yearly contender, and Thome was the face of the franchise.
While a great majority of fans are happy to see Thome back, there are still some bitter fans who still carry a grudge over his departure nine years ago. Time has healed a lot of the wounds from that December day in 2002 when he packed his bags and left for Philadelphia, but some animosity still exists.
If you rewind the tape back to that time almost nine years ago when Thome left Cleveland there was a feeling of betrayal in this city. Long before LeBron James, there was Thome’s departure which incensed a fanbase. Thome is not a narcissistic jerk like James, and instead is one of the nicest, most genuine people to ever play professional sports (unlike James). But back then he did mislead the fans by saying he would give a hometown discount and that they would have to “tear the shirt off his back to leave Cleveland”.
It seemed but a mere formality that Thome would remain an Indian after the 2002 season, especially after a season where the Indians traded almost every household name on the roster. The Indians did not trade Thome, and they went into the offseason with the intention of resigning him and rebuilding the club around him.
After several negotiations, in the end the Phillies signed him for six years and $85 million, a deal which also included a club option for a seventh season for $13 million. The total value of that contract was a potential $98 million dollars. On the flip side the Indians final offer was for five years and $63 million with vesting options based on performance for a sixth and seventh season at $12 million each. The total value of that contract was a potential $87 million.
In the end Thome chose the Phillies’ offer for what he called “a chance to win” and ultimately appeared greedy by not giving the Indians a hometown discount and leaving for the last dollar. He was supposed to be different, and one of those unique players who got it like the Cal Ripken’s, Tony Gwynn’s, Trevor Hoffman’s, etc of the world who stayed with their teams for much less money when they could have easily received millions more on the open market. They were loyal to their teams and loved the cities they played in so gave substantial hometown discounts.
What’s done is done. I will be the first to admit that I lost a lot of respect for Thome after that decision and don’t hold him in as high regard as I once did. But whether you are still bitter or not, he is still an amazing human being, life is too short to cry foul over the past, and he is an Indian now.
Thome gets to come back and potentially write the final chapter and close the book to his 21-year career by finishing where it all started. Maybe he and the team has one final run in them to make some noise and make his homecoming truly magical with a postseason berth.
So welcome home the living legend.
AUG
27
Written by: Tony Lastoria
8/27/2011 9:21 AM
The Indians made one of their more popular moves in a long time when on Thursday night they completed a trade with the Minnesota Twins to acquire designated hitter Jim Thome.
When the Twins put Thome on trade waivers Monday afternoon word quickly started to spread that the Indians may claim him and try to swing a deal with the Twins. With designated hitter Travis Hafner suffering a nasty foot injury in Detroit on Sunday and potentially done for the season, it made a lot of sense to find a designated hitter option if one were to come available.
While the 48 hour waiver period had to run its course there was a lot of speculation that the Chicago White Sox would put in a claim on Thome to block the Indians. For those unfamiliar with the claim process, how it works is teams with a worse record have higher waiver priority and the White Sox were a game behind the Indians so they could have claimed him before the Indians. In the end the White Sox did not make a claim, possibly as a nice gesture to allow a clear path for Thome to return to the Indians.
Once the Indians were awarded the claim it was but a mere formality for the Indians and Twins to complete a deal. Thome did not have a lot of trade value, so the Indians and Twins were able to agree on a very small list of players for the Twins to choose from. The deal ended up being for a “player to be named later”, and the Twins have until October 15th to make that decision. The player is not expected to be a player of significance.
Upon the official news being released late on Thursday night that Thome was indeed an Indian again, it set off a fervor among Tribe Nation. One of the true Indians greats of all time was returning to the team and city for one final hurrah, and to potentially retire with the team he originally started his long professional career with back in 1991.
Over Thome’s 12-year Major League career with the Indians from 1991-2002 he hit .287 with 334 homers, and 927 RBI in 1377 games. He turned 41-years old last night and returns to the Indians as the club’s all time leader in home runs (334) and walks (997), and ranks second all time in club history in RBI (927), fifth in runs scored (917), fourth in total bases (2633), third in on-base percentage (.414), and third in extra base hits (613). His 52 home runs in 2002 are a franchise single season record, and his 49 home runs in 2001 are third most in franchise history (Albert Belle had 50 homers in 1995).
Thome is no longer one of the most feared left-handed power hitters in the game, but he is still very productive. Prior to joining the Indians he was hitting .243 with 12 homers, 40 RBI and a .827 OPS in 71 games with the Twins. He recently joined the 600 home run club when he socked two homers against Detroit on August 15th, and is only the eighth player in baseball history to reach the 600 homer club.
The return “home” for Thome was celebrated on Friday night with a sellout crowd that gave him a standing ovation and lifted “Welcome Thome” signs when he first stepped to the plate. It was an electric atmosphere and brought back memories of the time nine years ago when “The Jake” was flooded with fans every night, the Tribe was a yearly contender, and Thome was the face of the franchise.
While a great majority of fans are happy to see Thome back, there are still some bitter fans who still carry a grudge over his departure nine years ago. Time has healed a lot of the wounds from that December day in 2002 when he packed his bags and left for Philadelphia, but some animosity still exists.
If you rewind the tape back to that time almost nine years ago when Thome left Cleveland there was a feeling of betrayal in this city. Long before LeBron James, there was Thome’s departure which incensed a fanbase. Thome is not a narcissistic jerk like James, and instead is one of the nicest, most genuine people to ever play professional sports (unlike James). But back then he did mislead the fans by saying he would give a hometown discount and that they would have to “tear the shirt off his back to leave Cleveland”.
It seemed but a mere formality that Thome would remain an Indian after the 2002 season, especially after a season where the Indians traded almost every household name on the roster. The Indians did not trade Thome, and they went into the offseason with the intention of resigning him and rebuilding the club around him.
After several negotiations, in the end the Phillies signed him for six years and $85 million, a deal which also included a club option for a seventh season for $13 million. The total value of that contract was a potential $98 million dollars. On the flip side the Indians final offer was for five years and $63 million with vesting options based on performance for a sixth and seventh season at $12 million each. The total value of that contract was a potential $87 million.
In the end Thome chose the Phillies’ offer for what he called “a chance to win” and ultimately appeared greedy by not giving the Indians a hometown discount and leaving for the last dollar. He was supposed to be different, and one of those unique players who got it like the Cal Ripken’s, Tony Gwynn’s, Trevor Hoffman’s, etc of the world who stayed with their teams for much less money when they could have easily received millions more on the open market. They were loyal to their teams and loved the cities they played in so gave substantial hometown discounts.
What’s done is done. I will be the first to admit that I lost a lot of respect for Thome after that decision and don’t hold him in as high regard as I once did. But whether you are still bitter or not, he is still an amazing human being, life is too short to cry foul over the past, and he is an Indian now.
Thome gets to come back and potentially write the final chapter and close the book to his 21-year career by finishing where it all started. Maybe he and the team has one final run in them to make some noise and make his homecoming truly magical with a postseason berth.
So welcome home the living legend.
Re: Articles
777Sat Aug 27 05:42pm EDT
Guillen scolds Indians fans for hypocritical treatment of Thome
By David Brown
Guillen scolds Indians fans for hypocritical treatment of Thome
Chicago White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen talks so much, he is bound to say something folks don't want to hear.
Fans of the Cleveland Indians probably don't want to be reminded of how they treated Jim Thome(notes) at the Progressive Jake after he left via free agency, but as Guillen eagerly reminded them, it wasn't kindly. Thome certainly was booed — not by all, but mostly, and often vociferously — whenever he and the White Sox came to Cleveland.
The reaction was different Friday, when Thome made his first appearance with the Indians since 2002. Folks at the former Jake welcomed him warmly and overwhelmingly, with cheering voices, clapping hands and friendly signage.
As Indians GM Chris Antonetti pointed out, and Guillen repeated, it was Thome who made the decision to waive his no-trade clause and come back to Cleveland via a deal with the Minnesota Twins. Guillen added that any other player probably wouldn't have OK'd it.
"Anybody [else] in this game would tell Cleveland fans, 'Screw yourself — I ain't going there.' Jim Thome? That's why there's only one Jim Thome in baseball. And I tip my hate to him; I have more respect now for him than ever."
And Guillen wasn't letting Indians fans who changed their tune get away with hypocrisy. Check out the video, from CSN Chicago, of his entire statement on Thome and Tribe fans:
"Thank God the people of Cleveland forgot very quick, because they had the biggest standing ovation [for Thome] a few minutes ago. But they have a very short memory. I'm happy that Cleveland fans give him the welcome they way they should. They should forgive him, what happened, and they should be embarrassed about booing this man with no reason. Now they have him back and hopefully Jim plays good for them."
It's true that Thome had said they'd have to tear the Indians jersey off his back, but the Philadelphia Phillies made him an offer he couldn't refuse — especially considering the low-ball contract that Indians ownership offered him — so he left.
Indians fans, by their reaction at the ballpark, emptied their bitterness on the player instead of ownership. Apparently those hurt feelings take about nine years to subside, and are gone. Just not forgotten.
Guillen scolds Indians fans for hypocritical treatment of Thome
By David Brown
Guillen scolds Indians fans for hypocritical treatment of Thome
Chicago White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen talks so much, he is bound to say something folks don't want to hear.
Fans of the Cleveland Indians probably don't want to be reminded of how they treated Jim Thome(notes) at the Progressive Jake after he left via free agency, but as Guillen eagerly reminded them, it wasn't kindly. Thome certainly was booed — not by all, but mostly, and often vociferously — whenever he and the White Sox came to Cleveland.
The reaction was different Friday, when Thome made his first appearance with the Indians since 2002. Folks at the former Jake welcomed him warmly and overwhelmingly, with cheering voices, clapping hands and friendly signage.
As Indians GM Chris Antonetti pointed out, and Guillen repeated, it was Thome who made the decision to waive his no-trade clause and come back to Cleveland via a deal with the Minnesota Twins. Guillen added that any other player probably wouldn't have OK'd it.
"Anybody [else] in this game would tell Cleveland fans, 'Screw yourself — I ain't going there.' Jim Thome? That's why there's only one Jim Thome in baseball. And I tip my hate to him; I have more respect now for him than ever."
And Guillen wasn't letting Indians fans who changed their tune get away with hypocrisy. Check out the video, from CSN Chicago, of his entire statement on Thome and Tribe fans:
"Thank God the people of Cleveland forgot very quick, because they had the biggest standing ovation [for Thome] a few minutes ago. But they have a very short memory. I'm happy that Cleveland fans give him the welcome they way they should. They should forgive him, what happened, and they should be embarrassed about booing this man with no reason. Now they have him back and hopefully Jim plays good for them."
It's true that Thome had said they'd have to tear the Indians jersey off his back, but the Philadelphia Phillies made him an offer he couldn't refuse — especially considering the low-ball contract that Indians ownership offered him — so he left.
Indians fans, by their reaction at the ballpark, emptied their bitterness on the player instead of ownership. Apparently those hurt feelings take about nine years to subside, and are gone. Just not forgotten.
Re: Articles
779Both treatments make perfectly good sense as a baseball fan. He left for $$ in his prime, but comes back after years of establishing himself as a worthy baseball opponent and a grizzled veteran looking for one last possible bit of glory with his original organization before heading to Cooperstown.
Re: Articles
780http://jewsandbaseball.com/
One of our local PBS stations has an hour long documentary narrated by Dustin Hoffman noting the love of baseball by Jewish-Americans. Interviews with Yogi Berra, Sandy Koufax, Bob Feller, Shawn Green, Al Rosen and Kevin Youkilis are featured.
I think I may have seen this one before one late night, but perhaps not since it was just released in 2010.
One of our local PBS stations has an hour long documentary narrated by Dustin Hoffman noting the love of baseball by Jewish-Americans. Interviews with Yogi Berra, Sandy Koufax, Bob Feller, Shawn Green, Al Rosen and Kevin Youkilis are featured.
I think I may have seen this one before one late night, but perhaps not since it was just released in 2010.