Cleveland Sports Forum

Vic P - Remember Joe Walsh's song "Life's been Good"? There's a line in it..

"I can't complain but sometimes I still do" The human condition.



As for me, I want to roll with it. I understand they are not really contenders this year but I watch with interest their road from here.

Joe Walsh quote noted !

I need me some Funk 48...

Maybe this will work - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkZepbHIrvE

Greene is a lot farther away than that Vic. He was drafted from high school in 2020 and has no game experience yet. 2024 if he moves fast.

Kent State is alive !

Anthony Castrovince
@castrovince
·
Jan 8
FWIW, the Blue Jays were the runner-up for Francisco Lindor. Don't know specific players, but I'm told their offer had what is probably a higher ceiling yet was centered on long-term prospects. Cleveland chose the package from the Mets b/c it balanced short- and long-term help.

Anthony Castrovince
@castrovince
·
Jan 8
My opinion: This approach would only seem to make sense if Cleveland is serious about reinvesting a significant amount of the Lindor/Carrasco trade $$$ savings on talent that can help in 2021.

What I’m hearing about the Francisco Lindor deal with the Mets – Terry’s Talkin’ Tribe
Updated 5:59 AM; Today 5:59 AM

By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer


ABOUT THE FRANCISCO LINDOR TRADE

1. The Indians are done cutting payroll. They will save at least $30 million on the trade that sent Francisco Lindor and Carlos Carrasco to the Mets. Team president Chris Antonetti said the trade “gives us the financial flexibility to reinvest in the team that will make us more competitive.”

2. The Indians are not going to use all of the $30 million from the deal for players, but some of it. I hear one of their top targets is free-agent second baseman Cesar Hernandez, who played so well for the Tribe in 2020. The 30-year-old batted .283 (.763 OPS) with 3 HR and 20 RBI. He led the American League with 20 doubles last season.


3. I’ll throw this out there: It’s a long shot, but what about Michael Brantley? He is a free agent. I hear the Indians plan to talk to him. Since leaving the Tribe, he’s played two seasons in Houston. As usual, Brantley has batted .300 ... it’s .309 (.867 OPS) to be exact. Brantley is 33. My guess is some team will offer him a lucrative multiyear deal. The Indians may end up looking at free agents such as Eddie Rosario or Jackie Bradley.

4. The Indians did receive infielders Andres Gimenez and Amed Rosario as part of the Lindor deal. The Tribe could go with Gimenez at short and Rosario at second. Rosario has been a career shortstop, but the Indians believe he can easily adapt to second.

5. The Tribe thinks the 22-year-old Gimenez can be their starting shortstop for a long time. They love his glove, considering it elite. Gimenez started 22 games at short for the Mets. He also played 19 games at second and 10 at third base. But short is his prime position.




6. The Tribe also believes Gimenez was rushed to the majors. He jumped from Class AA to the big leagues. Gimenez batted a respectable .263 (.732 OPS) with 3 HR and 12 RBI in 118 at bats. He was 8-of-9 in stolen bases. The Indians think he can be a big-time base stealer. The Indians aren’t saying it, but I believe they consider Gimenez to be the key player in the trade.

7. If the Indians sign Hernandez, they could send Gimenez to Class AAA to play regularly. They could open with Rosario at short and Hernandez at second. Then they could bring up Gimenez early in the 2021 season. The Indians tend to be patient with their top prospects.

8. Rosario was ranked as the No. 8 prospect in all of baseball by Baseball America in 2017. ESPN ranked him No. 3 on its prospect list. The 25 year old has the athleticism to be a good regular player. In 2019, he batted .287 (.755 OPS) with 15 HR and 72 RBI.


9. But in 2020, Rosario batted .252 (.643 OPS) and by the end of the season, Gimenez was playing more shortstop. Rosario doesn’t walk much, only four times in 147 plate appearances in 2020. He is 50-of-75 in stolen bases, only 67%. You want to be at least over 80%. The Indians believe he has a lot of natural ability and needs time to put it together. At the very least, he is a respectable big league middle infielder.

Cleveland Indians summer camp, July 23, 2020
Carlos Carrasco stretches during the last day of summer camp at Progressive Field, July 23, 2020.John Kuntz, cleveland.com




10. Why did the Indians put Carlos Carrasco in the deal? First, the Mets wanted the right-hander. While it’s expected the Mets under new ownership will make Lindor a massive offer to sign a contract extension, he still could play out the season and hit the open market. Signed for two more seasons plus an option for 2023, Carrasco is tied to the Mets even if they lose Lindor after 2021.

11. I heard the Indians talked to several teams about Carrasco. While he was wanted, the demand was not high. Teams were concerned because Carrasco will be 34 on March 21. He is a leukemia survivor. The disease knocked him out of most of the 2019 season.

12. Around baseball, there also is a sense to be careful when the Indians trade a veteran starting pitcher. Yes, Trevor Bauer was outstanding in 2020 for the Reds. But he pitched poorly in Cincinnati after being traded at the 2019 deadline. Corey Kluber pitched one game after being dealt to Texas. Mike Clevinger made four starts for San Diego, then hurt his elbow and will miss 2021 because of Tommy John elbow surgery.

13. The Indians were willing to deal Carrasco not only to move the two-year deal worth $27 million, but also because of their wealth of starting pitching. They will probably open the season with a rotation led by Cy Young winner Shane Bieber. Then come Aaron Civale and Zach Plesac. Those are the big three. They probably will fill in the final two spots from this list: Triston McKenzie, Cal Quantrill and Adam Plutko.


14. The Indians also have several young starters who could be a factor at some point in 2021: Scott Moss, Logan Allen, Sam Hentges and Eli Morgan. Let’s add Joey Cantillo to the list. He was acquired in the Clevinger deal with San Diego. The 21-year-old lefty has a 13-7 record and 2.51 ERA in the minors. He’s not pitched above Class A, but he could develop quickly.

Cleveland Indians starting pitcher Triston McKenzie pitches
Cleveland Indians starting pitcher Triston McKenzie pitches against the Kansas City Royals in the first inning. Joshua Gunter, cleveland.com


15. Of the second group of starter possibilities, my favorite is Moss. He’s a 26-year-old lefty who was a star pitcher at the University of Florida. He was drafted in 2016. His career minor-league record is 41-17 with a 3.28 ERA. He had a 1.93 ERA in four starts for Class AAA Columbus in 2019.

16. The two other players the Tribe received in the deal are Josh Wolf and Isaiah Greene. Both are several years away from the majors. Both were ranked among the Mets’ top 10 prospects by several rating systems. Greene hasn’t played any pro ball. He was a second-round pick by the Mets in 2020. Wolf was the Mets’ second-round pick in 2019. Both were high school players when drafted.

17. The 6-foot-3 Wolf was so prized by the Mets, they gave him a $2.1 million signing bonus – that was $800,000 more than “slotted” for a second-round pick. He was heading to Texas A&M until the Mets showed him the money. Wolf’s average fastball is about 93 mph, and has hit 96. Remember, he’s only 20 and still adding strength. His pro career consists of 12 strikeouts in eight innings in rookie ball in 2019. His best pitch is said to be his slider.


18. Greene was the 69th pick in 2020 draft, an athletic outfielder out of Corona High in California. He’s a 6-foot-1, left-handed hitter. The Indians had low first-round/high second-round grades on Wolf and Greene. They settled for younger prospects because they thought they would be of more value than the so-so prospects they were offered as alternatives.

"Gimenez can be their starting shortstop for a long time. They love his glove, considering it elite."

Whatever happened to SS Gabriel Arias a key player in the Clevinger deal; "a quality defender plenty of range and very impressive arm" and we also got a good 2nd baseman Owen Miller

first draft pick this year was SS Carson Tucker and solid defensive SS Milan Tolentino in the 4th round

2nd round pick in 2019 was defense first SS Yordys Valdes 4th round pick SS Christian Cairo [neither on current Top 30]

And then there's super impressive SS Brayan Rocchio [although his ratings are higher for offense] and impressive offensive 2b Aaron Bracho

And top 30 SS Gabriel Rodriguez and Angel Martinez and Jose Tena

Yes a SS can and often does convert to another position but this seems overbalanced

civ - San Diego as a prime example of an overstacked minor league system which they then dealt from. (And the Padres sucked for years while they stockpiled.)

But as you know, minor leaguers not only fill big league spots but can be used for trade capital.

Not sure why we're trading for shortstops along with drafting them; it seems overbalanced. Of course we haven't figured out how to develop outfielders so perhaps this makes sense.

Here's the BA assessment of the 4 we got in the Lindor Carrasco deal. Note that they do not think Greene projects as a centerfielder

INDIANS RECEIVE

Andres Gimenez, SS/2B
Age: 22

The leading light of the Mets’ 2015 international signing class, Gimenez has developed into a viable big league middle infielder who excels defensively and on the bases, with room to grow as a hitter. He reached Double-A as a 19-year-old in 2018 and over the course of that season plus 2019 didn’t do much to separate himself with the bat. That began to change for Gimenez in the 2019 Arizona Fall League, when he hit .371 to win the batting title. He carried that momentum into 2020 and made the Mets’ Opening Day roster, eventually edging his way into the regular shortstop role in September. Gimenez has a plus glove at shortstop and second base, with the versatility to play third base. He recorded a 94th percentile sprint speed as a rookie, according to MLB Statcast, and went 8-for-9 in stolen base attempts. Gimenez has a discerning batting eye and could develop into a plus big league hitter with fringe power, perhaps more.

Amed Rosario, SS
Age: 25

Rosario was one of the Mets’ brighter prospects of the 2010s but never quite put his myriad talents together for an entire season in Queens. He entered the 2017 season as the No. 8 prospect in baseball and made his debut that summer. He received the lion’s share of work at shortstop in 2018 and 2019 before ceding playing time to Andres Gimenez down the stretch in 2020. Rosario is one of the fastest players in baseball but hasn’t gotten on base enough or batted high enough in the order consistently for that speed to manifest in large stolen base totals. He peaked with the bat in 2019, when he put up a 101 OPS+ and shined in the second half by batting .319/.351/.453. Overall, Rosario has been undermined by poor plate discipline, a low exit velocity and too many unproductive ground balls. He is a fine defensive shortstop who profiles as a bottom-of-the-order hitter unless he takes giant strides as he enters his mid 20s. Rosario is under club control for three more seasons.

Josh Wolf, RHP
Age: 20

The Mets went nearly $800,000 over slot to sign the Houston native Wolf out of high school in the second round of the 2019 draft. He looked sharp in a five-game cameo in the Rookie-level Gulf Coast League that summer but didn’t pitch in front of scouts again until instructional league in 2020. Wolf spent last season working with a private instructor to boost his velocity. Scouts indicate that pursuit has cost him control and feel for his secondary pitches, but Wolf is a plus athlete who should be able to work through those issues. The Mets valued his projectable 6-foot-3 frame and feel for four pitches. His fastball arrives in the low 90s and tops at 96 mph and could sit in the mid 90s as he matures. Wolf’s breaking ball is his best pitch. He calls it a curveball, but its qualities more resemble a slider with abrupt break in the 78-81 mph band. Either way, he has feel for spin and the starter traits necessary to add velocity and hone a changeup.

Isaiah Greene, OF
Age: 19

The Mets drafted the SoCal high school outfielder in 2020 with the supplemental second-round pick they added when free agent Zack Wheeler signed with the Phillies. Greene signed for roughly slot value and got on the field for the Mets at instructional league. He shook off the rust of not playing competitively all summer to stand out as one of the Mets’ better young hitters at instructs. He hit .464 in camp while facing pro pitchers for the first time. He has a line drive-oriented lefthanded swing and a disciplined, hit-over-power approach that could make him a plus hitter down the line. His power will probably be borderline unless he overhauls his approach. Greene lacks the pure speed or instincts to stick in center field and probably settles in left field with a below-average arm.

Bottom line is that this seems to me to be a typical Indians trade. By that I mean...

They seemed to value getting back MLB ready talent first and foremost. Giminez is pretty obviously valued and will plug in at shortstop right away. But the price for getting someone like that was prospects that are farther away from MLB.

That said, the Tribe does their homework and I don't doubt the value of Greene and Wolf.

As for Rosario this is a dice throw. I remember, after his 2019 season I thought....finally. It seemed he had figured it out. And 2020...well...a lot of guys (Lindor?) didn't light it up in 2020 so based on 2019 I think it's a viable gamble.

Giminez is the man anyways - for his defense. And his bat seems promising - after all he is very young still.

Now my hope is they use some of the savings to add offense. After all, it won't be too hard to replace 2020 Lindor's offense. It sucked in a major way. He chased pitch after pitch relentlessly. And really no one else besides Jose really hit!

Bats are still very much out there and they will be at discounts.

I'll be surprised if they spend more than $1M on any signing, but hope I'm wrong.

CLEVELAND -- The Indians avoided arbitration with all three of their eligible players on Friday afternoon.

The Tribe settled on one-year deals with catcher Austin Hedges ($3.28 million), newly acquired middle infielder Amed Rosario ($2.4 million) and reliever Phil Maton ($975,000) prior to Friday’s deadline, sources told MLB.com. The team has not confirmed the agreements.

Hedges now becomes the third-highest paid player on the Tribe’s current 40-man roster, trailing just José Ramírez ($9.4 million) and Roberto Pérez ($5.5 million). The 28-year-old backstop was sent to Cleveland from San Diego in the Mike Clevinger trade at last year’s Trade Deadline. Hedges played in just six games with the Tribe and went 1-for-12, but he has been highly regarded for his above-average defense.

. . . the team has continued to prioritize having top-of-the-line catchers behind the plate to help lead the rotation. Now, with Pérez and Hedges owning two of its three highest contracts, the club has proven just how essential it believes that catching duo is.

Rosario joined the Tribe last week as part of the return package from the Mets for shortstop Francisco Lindor and Carrasco. Rosario was New York’s primary shortstop for the past four seasons and will likely take Lindor’s spot with Cleveland in 2021. Last year, Rosario hit .252 with a .643 OPS in 46 games, and he ends his four-year stint in New York with a .268/.302/.403 slash line, 32 homers and 148 RBIs. The 25-year-old has had success against lefties in his career, slashing .300/.339/.473.

Maton was one of the Tribe’s most-used arms out of the bullpen last season, tying former closer Brad Hand for the third-most appearances on the year. The 27-year-old righty pitched to a 4.57 ERA in 21 2/3 frames with a 2.22 FIP and a 13.3 strikeouts-per-nine-innings ratio. He made nine appearances for Cleveland in 2019 after he was traded to the Tribe from the Padres at that year’s Trade Deadline.

. . . brings its Opening Day payroll projection to approximately $37.6 million, according to Cot’s.

The team saved about $30 million for the 2021 roster by trading away Lindor and Carrasco, and the front office indicated that the next steps will be to reinvest at least some of those savings back into the team. [We;ll see about that.] Depending on how much the Tribe plans to spend, the club could still have plenty of room to make some additions to the active roster prior to Opening Day.

This article had civ's name all over it

The past, present and future of the shortstop position in Cleveland


By Zack Meisel Jan 19, 2021 21
CLEVELAND — On a blustery Saturday afternoon in April of 1994, the unreliable glove of Cleveland’s new shortstop cost the club a game against Kansas City.

Omar Vizquel’s three errors contributed to seven unearned Royals runs, with his third gaffe — a dropped pop-up with the bases loaded and the score deadlocked in the eighth inning — handing Kansas City the victory. It was a season’s worth of miscues for the reigning Gold Glove Award winner in a span of three hours, and just nine games into his tenure with his new team.

Vizquel remembers a fan shouting, “Send this guy back to Seattle!” Kenny Lofton once told me: “The first thing we said was, ‘Who is this guy?’”

Turns out, Vizquel would man the shortstop position for the Indians for 11 years, during which he claimed eight Gold Gloves. That’s a lengthy term at a premium position, but that has long been the norm for the Indians.

Before Vizquel arrived, Julio Franco and Félix Fermín handled shortstop for much of the previous decade. Vizquel eventually passed the baton to Jhonny Peralta, who after four years at short, shifted to third base to make room for Asdrúbal Cabrera.

When the club dealt Cabrera to the Nationals in 2014, they offered José Ramírez a nearly year-long audition until Francisco Lindor joined the big-league roster in June 2015. For the most part, though, the Indians have enjoyed stability at shortstop since they played in their cavernous lakeshore venue. It’s especially true when comparing it to other areas of the diamond. They used 26 different starting outfield combinations in 2020, after all. And they called upon 32 different second basemen to start a game between Roberto Alomar’s departure prior to the 2002 season and Jason Kipnis’ debut in 2011. (Who could forget Jayson Nix and Joe Inglett and Lou Merloni?)

Since Vizquel’s Cleveland debut, four players — five if we’re including Ramírez’s trial in 2014-15 — have essentially covered shortstop for the last 27 years.

Now, though, it’s time for another transition, and this one’s a bit more complicated.

The present
Lindor started 678 of the team’s 708 games at shortstop the last five seasons. He now resides in New York.

The two shortstops the club obtained from the Mets, Amed Rosario and Andrés Giménez will have the first opportunities to follow in the perennial All-Star’s footsteps. Giménez is the more gifted defender. Rosario’s metrics at shortstop are not suitable for younger audiences, but he occupied the spot for the Mets the last few years until Giménez debuted for the club in 2020. Yu Chang, who rose through Cleveland’s system as a shortstop, seems more likely to land at second base or in the utility role.

Several others could soon push for a chance, including Gabriel Arias and Tyler Freeman, two of the organization’s top prospects, who figure to join the conversation at some point in the next 18 months.

Attempting to predict the club’s shortstop for Opening Day 2024, for example, is a difficult task. It could be one of many candidates. And that’s precisely the way the Indians want it.

The future
Though he skipped Triple A and didn’t turn 22 until September, Giménez logged a .732 OPS (and a 105 wRC+, or 5 percent better than league average at creating runs) with a solid defensive showing in the middle infield. Baseball America ranked him No. 66 on its top 100 prospects list for 2021. Plenty of teams would acquire him and believe they have their long-term answer at shortstop.

That may be the case in Cleveland, too, but it’s not so simple.

Sure, it’s possible Rosario settles at a different position and Arias slides over to third, Freeman goes to second, Chang and Owen Miller and Ernie Clement carve out their own roles and Nolan Jones sticks in the outfield. And, as is usually the case, some of these young players will prosper and others will flop. Freeman owns a .319/.379/.441 slash line in three minor-league seasons. He’s a contact hitter — the organization’s favorite hitting trait at the moment — who has struck out in only 8.8 percent of his plate appearances. Arias was the crown jewel of the Mike Clevinger trade. He hit for both average and power (17 homers and 21 doubles in 120 games) at High A in 2019, though he also struck out 128 times.

But there’s a long line of shortstops in Cleveland’s rising farm system, which is one of the deepest and youngest in the sport. It’s a pivotal year for those attempting to cement their status as can’t-miss prospects, guys who aren’t even of legal drinking age, such as Brayan Rocchio, José Fermin, Gabriel Rodriguez and José Tena. After last year’s minor-league season was scrapped because of the pandemic, they could start to climb through the system in 2021, to Lynchburg and Lake County, where they could land on more evaluators’ radars.

And that group doesn’t include an even younger crop of shortstops. The Indians nabbed Carson Tucker, the brother of Pirates outfielder Cole Tucker, with their first-round selection in 2020, and Milan Tolentino, the son of former big-leaguer José Tolentino, in the fourth round. There are well-regarded teenagers who have only appeared in the Dominican Summer League or in rookie ball at the club’s complex in Arizona, such as Yordys Valdes, Angel Martínez and Junior Sanquintin.

Oh, and the organization signed 15 players on the first day of the international signing period on Friday. Eight of them are shortstops, headlined by Angel Genao and Fran Alduey, who ranked No. 23 and 25, respectively, on MLB Pipeline’s international prospect rankings. Paul Gillispie, the Indians’ vice president of international scouting, described both as switch-hitting shortstops who routinely make hard contact at the plate. He referred to Alduey as “a compact, athletic, quick-twitch type of player” who possesses the physical tools to remain at shortstop, while Genao is “a leaner, longer” player who “could potentially grow into some power.”

(For more on individual players’ scouting reports, check out Keith Law’s prospect rankings)

So, why all the shortstops? Gillispie noted tryout camps in Latin American countries often have long lines of participants at the shortstop position. Teams typically begin scouting international players as they reach the ages of 12 and 13. Ramírez dropped out of school at that age so he could solely focus on baseball and capture scouts’ attention. The pandemic complicated the scouting process this year, as evaluators devoted more time to studying players’ skills via video and interviewing them remotely.

There’s certainly strategy behind Cleveland’s infatuation with shortstops. The Indians value versatility, and if a player can conquer the complexities of shortstop, he can probably handle another position. So if Cleveland collects shortstops by the bushel, those who prove they can hit can eventually move to other spots on the diamond based on the team’s needs.

Jones, for instance, was drafted as a shortstop out of Holy Ghost Prep High School outside of Philadelphia. He shifted to third base during his first season in the organization and, thanks to his athleticism — he comes from a family of hockey players — he’s now learning corner outfield and first base so he can make a more immediate transition to the major-league roster. The Indians can follow a similar plan with other shortstops as they climb through the system. (The bevy of shortstops also provides the team with trade ammunition.)

The organization has cultivated a widely envied starting-pitching pipeline, but it continues to search for a comparable formula on the position-player side. This is one calculated attempt to remedy that. As a result, as the Indians search for their next long-term solution at shortstop, they certainly won’t be lacking candidates.

(Top photo of Amed Rosario, left, and Andrés Giménez: Alejandra Villa Loarca / Newsday RM via Getty Images)