Peter C,

Thank goodness for your posts.

I swear there's about 40% of the country who would jump at the chance to go back to only allowing white landowners to vote if they had the chance.

Democracy is messy, even when moderated by representative democracy and mechanisms like the electoral college.

MADDOW: That happened! That really happened.

We are not going to have a Supreme Court that will overturn Roe versus Wade. There will be no more Antonin Scalias and Samuel Alitos added to this court.

We`re not going to repeal health reform. Nobody is going to kill Medicare and make old people in this generation or any other generation fight it out on the open market to try to get themselves health insurance.

We are not going to give a 20 percent tax cut to millionaires and billionaires and expect programs like food stamps and kids' health insurance to cover the cost of that tax cut.

We`re not make you clear it with your boss if you want to get birth control under the insurance plan that you're on.

We are not going to redefine rape.

We are not going to amend the United States Constitution to stop gay people from getting married.

We are not going to double Guantanamo.

We are not eliminating the Department of Energy or the Department of Education or Housing at the federal level.

We are not going to spend $2 trillion on the military that the military does not want.

We are not scaling back on student loans because the country`s new plan is that you should borrow money from your parents.

We are not vetoing the DREAM Act.

We are not self-deporting.

We are not letting Detroit go bankrupt.

We are not starting a trade war with China on Inauguration Day in January.

We are not going to have, as a president, a man who once led a mob of friends to run down a scared, gay kid, to hold him down and forcibly cut his hair off with a pair of scissors while that kid cried and screamed for help and there was no apology, not ever.

We are not going to have a Secretary of State John Bolton.

We are not bringing Dick Cheney back.

We are not going to have a foreign policy shop stocked with architects of the Iraq war.

We are not going to do it. We had the chance to do that if we wanted to do that, as a country. And we said no, last night, loudly.

Wow, now I understand how it happened that Cleveland went downhill as fast and furious as it did as 1960 approached.

I was going to say "some," but I'm inclined to say "most" here need to wake up and smell the coffee.

I got out of Cleveland/Northeastern Ohio and Democrat hypnosis as soon as I realized that a flashy pendulum was swinging before me as the area went to hell.

I have four kids, four grand kids, with a 5th with the Grace of God on the way.

All born and living where precincts did note vote insanely statistically high to side with the committee that re-elected our current Presidnt.

I care about my kids and grandchildren, and their future. Current Democrats do not, as our President loads our future generations with debt.

A deeper retort seems appropriate, but for now I'll note that I'm apparently a lone ranger in these parts, so pile on.


Peter C, no personal offense, but those squished maps are dumb.

I've spent much time in all 50 states, and visited all by the age of 34, and continued on for additional visits and also added 20+ countries.

How often in your life Peter C have you sat down and engaged conversation with anyone outside of your known life territories of Cleveland and Baltimore/Washington?

Have you ever thrown risk aside and gone in for a beer in a largely Native American bar just off the "the rez" in rural Northeastern AZ?

Have you ever drank in a dive bar with a smart wino across from Madison Square Garden?

Have you ever stopped in a road side bar with guns and knives being checked at the door?

Have you ever watched "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire" in a Greek/Italian family neighborhood bar close to the Philadelphia Convention Center with heads of unions and challenged them to good conversation?

Did you meet and have conversation with every member of the Jimmy Carter family, save Jimmy?

Did you meet and converse at length with Nelson Rockefeller or Barry Goldwater?


Did you sit down for a one on one interview with George McGovern to pen a story for the press of the experience?

I have. To all the above.

America is a great and large country, and I seem to have encountered folks here who acquiesced to silo living.

("silo" is a name for an often farm essential.....not just a place for missiles.....just as an aside to tired lifelong Democrats here)

As a conservative republican I apologize for almost everything TFISC posts in this folder.

For some reason TFISC thinks that he is the only one that has had life experiences. On one hand he questions other posters experience but on the other he was shocked that the city of Cleveland had entire corridors that voted for Obama.

Sounds like TFISC spent more time on this election then most of us but had no idea what was going on.

Not shocking !

("silo" is a name for an often farm essential.....not just a place for missiles.....just as an aside to tired lifelong Democrats here)

HEY! I have two silos right across the street from me!


... oh wait, I'm not a lifelong* Democrat, so I guess he wasn't talking to me.



* and don't go all Billy Koch** on me here, the only time I registered to vote and selected a political party, it was the Republicans.


** "Olympic silver medalist in nordic skiing Billy Koch!--Have you lived your whole life in Vermont?" "Not yet."

I've been an independent since I can't remember when. I've voted 3rd party in the vast majority of the times when I've had that option, unless a particular candidate from either party appealed to me.

I voted 3rd party this time not because I agree even 60% with what that guy wanted to do, but simply because I was in a state that was already a slam dunk for Obama, and I haven't liked the 2 choices I've had in any presidential election going all the way back to Clinton. People need to support a 3rd and 4th option if we're ever going to have a chance to break the stranglehold the 2 major parties have on our government. Neither of the 2 major parties represents me and they haven't for many years.

If there would have been a candidate resembling a younger Alan Simpson running for POTUS this time around I would have voted for that guy. Basically someone who is pragmatic, knows how to get things done in the political arena, and someone serious about attacking debt and deficit from both the spending side and the revenue side.

Peter C is exactly right about what happened in urban areas. Bottom line is there was a blatant attempt to suppress the vote this time around by the GOP and it backfired, and it energized and stimulated the vote against them in a way no-one would have predicted.

Then on the flip side the GOP put up a candidate who was so evasive that no-one in his own party really knew who he was or what he would actually do in office. Hence there was horrible voter turnout in areas they were supposed to be strong in. A really telling fact for me was that Romney/Ryan couldn't even carry any of their home states - Massachusetts, Michigan, Wisconsin, I think even Salt Lake City went against Romney.

What does it tell you when the people who know the candidates the best, who have had more exposure to them than the rest of the country, go against them?

I called this way back during the Republican primary debates when I saw the array of clowns the Repubs were putting up there. If they could have somehow nominated Ron Paul they might have won the election. Maybe Christie or Jeb Bush, anyone except the bozos they had. Otherwise the die was cast and the result was never much in doubt among objective observers.

Bottom line is the Tea Party extremists have pushed the whole party so far to the right that they're un-electable in a general election, except in more local contests. That's even in spite of a record amount of money being spent as a result of Citizen's United. And demographically it only gets worse for that party as the population of non-whites increases.

I voted 3rd party this time not because I agree even 60% with what that guy wanted to do, but simply because I was in a state that was already a slam dunk for Obama, and I haven't liked the 2 choices I've had in any presidential election going all the way back to Clinton. People need to support a 3rd and 4th option if we're ever going to have a chance to break the stranglehold the 2 major parties have on our government. Neither of the 2 major parties represents me and they haven't for many years.

Exact-a-mundo. I'm in a state for which the outcome never is in doubt, and I have voted 3rd party starting in 1996.

Big Bernie Sanders fan here.

I've lived most years in a swing state, and have voted 3rd party.

This year, I voted GOP for POTUS for the first time in 24 years.

I think Shapiro would make a better executive than Obama.

rusty2 wrote: On one hand he questions other posters experience but on the other he was shocked that the city of Cleveland had entire corridors that voted for Obama.

Rusty, do you think The City of Cleveland votes had "corridors" in the 2012 Presidential Election?.

The City of Cleveland had a flash flood for Obama. Hurricanes Katrina and Sandy paled in comparison in strength to the 4 year Obama paid "get our votes strategy."

"Cuyahoga County" had some corridors.

I'm not in NE Ohio, I'm about as far removed from there as one could possibly be except for following the teams.

But I could swear I've been reading that the economy has been on a substantial upswing there. Evidently thriving auto manufacturing and satellite industries, along with a natural gas drilling and fracking boom have lifted the local economy there?

I don't know- maybe someone closer could verify or deny this.

If that's the case why would those people want to throw out the incumbent especially when they've already been a Democratic leaning area? Who would expect that?

MtFan wrote:I'm not in NE Ohio, I'm about as far removed from there as one could possibly be except for following the teams.

But I could swear I've been reading that the economy has been on a substantial upswing there. Evidently thriving auto manufacturing and satellite industries, along with a natural gas drilling and fracking boom have lifted the local economy there?

I don't know- maybe someone closer could verify or deny this.

If that's the case why would those people want to throw out the incumbent especially when they've already been a Democratic leaning area? Who would expect that?

Sounds like the "Twinkie Defense," to me.

Look THAT up in your Funk & Wagnalls.

Bet your bippy, 18,000 Hostess Twinkie related jobs are going away as reported today.

Sock it to me.

(Am I the only one who thought Judy Carne was hotter than Goldie Hawn?.....what did I know.....and yes, Rusty your vote for Ruth Buzzi matters, too.)


Here come da judge......





And an aside, most of "northeastern Ohio" results came back with some normalcy of voting.


The City of Cleveland going 95%+ for Barack Obama deserves at least paying attention to the social and racial schism that has evolved since Obama was elected in 2008.

He proclaimed himself to be a unifier.

It seems he is more the powder in the cartridge.

Tribe Fan in SC/Cali wrote:

Bet your bippy, 18,000 Hostess Twinkie related jobs are going away as reported today.


And an aside, most of "northeastern Ohio" results came back with some normalcy of voting.


The City of Cleveland going 95%+ for Barack Obama deserves at least paying attention to the social and racial schism that has evolved since Obama was elected in 2008.

He proclaimed himself to be a unifier.

It seems he is more the powder in the cartridge.

This is kind of hilarious.

You don't think the Romney attacks on the "47%" had anything to do with the extremely high turnout in poor and lower middle class urban areas? You don't think the right's blatant attempts to suppress the vote motivated those very same voters to stand in line for hours, even until midnight just to make sure the suppression didn't succeed? You probably didn't believe it when the polls had Romney getting zero % of the black vote from day one?

The right wing always cries "class warfare" when the left tries to raise taxes on the wealthy while completely ignoring the thinly veiled "class warfare" they wage every single day on talk radio, in their campaign ads, and even in their speeches to donors.

For the right this election has been all about turning the middle to upper middle class against the lower middle class and the poor. In code they've tried to turn white against black and brown. While that tactic is pretty damn effective in many quarters, it also energized Obama's base in a way no-one expected. It also alienated or made many potential Romney voters become indifferent enough to not show up at the polls.

The message the right was pushing this last election cycle is broken. The primary process pushed Romney so far right that when he did pivot back to the center (as was the plan all along) a lot of voters just didn't believe him. The republicans had a deeply flawed system and a deeply flawed candidate.

I'd say the message from the left is broken also but it did work well enough to win the election. That's faint praise considering they ran mainly against huge money financing a hollow, empty message. Really the "anyone but Obama" vote should have made this election a slam dunk for anything remotely resembling a viable candidate and campaign. The blindness and arrogance of the Romney campaign translated into ineptitude. Their refusal to believe polls, their reliance on "yes" men for all of their information, their inability to step outside their bubble is what cost them what should have been an easy win.

Oh, and on the Hostess closing... Yeah, it amazes me that a company that has become a parody of itself, that is synonymous with "unhealthy preservative-laced junk food" has gone out of business. I've seen a lot of lamenting of their passing by people who would never eat their crap in a million years, let alone feed it to their kids or grand-kids.

But somehow people blame this on Obama. Yeah, right.

To me it's just basic capitalism, adapt or die. They never adapted to a more health conscious consumer base.

(Am I the only one who thought Judy Carne was hotter than Goldie Hawn?.....what did I know.....and yes, Rusty your vote for Ruth Buzzi matters, too.)

Sounds like you have dated a lot of Ruth Buzzi types in your time.

Hostess has been dead in the water for years.